Protesters in Alaska Stand for Love, and Oppose Prop 8.

13 11 2008

It’s been a few weeks since Anchorage had a good rally.

This Saturday, Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender (LGBT) and straight citizens will take to the streets of Anchorage and Fairbanks to protest the passage of Proposition 8, California’s anti-same sex marriage amendment, and the lack of LGBT equal rights in Alaska.

Tens of thousands of LGBT people and their allies have taken to the streets to show outrage with the outcome of California’s Proposition 8. Prop 8 is a Constitutional Amendment to prohibit same-sex marriage, taking away a right that was granted before the vote. Same-sex marriage bans also passed in Arizona and Florida. The outcome of these propositions has angered the national gay community and their supporters.

To date, more than 250,000 individuals have pledged to take part in a nationwide event to descend upon the City Halls, State Capitols and the Nation’s Capitol to make their voices heard. Signs, posters and numerous websites have already been created and the word is spreading quickly throughout the nation.  Jointheimpact.wetpaint.com lists protest locations in all 50 States and the District of Columbia.

The message is simple and profound:  Equal Rights for All.

The organizers of this nationwide event stress that these will be peaceful demonstrations. “Let’s move as one full unit, on the same day, and let’s show the United States of America that the LGBT community are also United States citizens equal in mind, body and spirit and deserving of full equality under the law.”

The Protest / Movement is scheduled to take place across the nation  on Saturday, November 15th, 2008. Those interested in attending this historic event may find their local protest location by visiting: http://jointheimpact.wetpaint.com

ANCHORAGE
Saturday, Nov. 15, 2008; at 12 p.m. Noon
550 W 7th Ave. in front of the Atwood Building

FAIRBANKS
Saturday, Nov. 15, 2008; at 9:30 a.m.
800 Cushman Street, City Hall


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175 responses

13 11 2008
pvazwindy

night all

13 11 2008
mmboucher (Florida)

Hello all

13 11 2008
Bernice

What?? is the world going MAD? It seems everything and everyone is in an uproar about something ALL over the world! Is there not one nation known to be at peace?

I’m sorry, but gay marriage is one of the last issues I want to promote, especially when there is so many other issues far outweighing us as a whole. I do know this comment is not a popular one, but I am not in favor of same sex relations anyway.

I highly recommend watching the clip embedded in the post. AKM

13 11 2008
Eyes Wide Open in Pittsburgh, PA

top 5?

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

Berneice, you have a right to your position, of course. However, for the GLBT community, this is of utmost importance. I am not in favor of churches, but I am not proposing a ban to them, either.

You go Alaska!

13 11 2008
say no to palin in politics

I wonder if the lawyers mentioned the word “Grand Larceny and Felony” when asking Palin to give the “clothes” back. Maybe that’s why she was franticly rounding up the RNC’s clothes.

1 Larceny in the U.S.

* 1.1 Take
* 1.2 Carry away
* 1.3 Personal property
* 1.4 Of another
* 1.5 Without consent
* 1.6 Intent to steal (animus furandi)
* 1.7 The thing stolen must have value

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

Night, pvazwindy.

Hello, mmboucher.

13 11 2008
Denise MadLibFromMSgaAZca

Alaska is coming out of the closet to the lower 48. Dang.

Lots of changes, only in so far as transparency though. Because everywhere, about 10% of us are born homosexual. Thanks Alaska for standing up for the rights of all people.

13 11 2008
Forty Watt

AKM; Thanks for the link. Off the see what’s happening in community.

13 11 2008
Bea

I smell troll… an especially vile discrimination-promoting sort of smell.

13 11 2008
strangelet

Aussie: re the previous thread — “he’s an old man, in his late fifties”

OUCH.

13 11 2008
mudslide pike

I am straight with a wife and five children. I find this whole thing interesting as one of my children is gay. Now this is not a right or wrong issue. This is a Constitutional issue. Marriage takes place in the Church and all the Churches have a right to deny a marriage between two men or two women. The paper you get at the local clerks office is a CONTRACT between two adult individuals.

I find myself asking who has the right to tell my child they can’t be happy?

This is not a religious matter, but a legal one.

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

Bea, I don’t think she’s a troll. Sadly, many people feel this way. Granted, most of the people who visit the ‘flats don’t, but Prop H8 DID pass.

13 11 2008
Denise MadLibFromMSgaAZca

My 17 year old knows I grew up in Mississippi during segregation and integration. Now we see interracial couples when we visit. But no same sex couples. She commented today that gay and lesbian rights are the civil rights issue of her time.

13 11 2008
Maureen

I think all people should have the same rights so I’ll be there in support of my gay bros and sisters tho I’m little fearful of the redneck backlash to the apparent infusion of free-thinkers into Alaska.

13 11 2008
Denise MadLibFromMSgaAZca

What really really irritates me about Prop 8 is that 70% of the money to support it came from the Mormon Church. Now. I would feel the same if it came from the Baptists or the Catholics or the Bhuddists. It is WRONG for a church, any church, to so impact a state constitution by taking away civil rights.

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

mudslide pike, I agree with you. That is why I would really like for ALL marriages to be civil. You are not married if you don’t get married at the courthouse. Then, you can have your religious ceremony after if you want. It’s definitely a civil right issue, especially in CA where the constitution specifically states that rights cannot be denied to an endangered class, which LGBT folk are. I’m not sure endangered is the right word, but something like that. It’s how they do it in Europe.

Forty Watt, I left a response for you in the last thread.

13 11 2008
mmboucher (Florida)

I am also straight with four grown children, and nine grandchildren which are all straight, but when you read about or hear about gay people enduring what they had to for centries is heartbreaking. This is not a choice and we should not choose for them!

13 11 2008
Forty Watt

strangelet (19:56:25) :

Aussie: re the previous thread — “he’s an old man, in his late fifties”

OUCH.

Ditto!🙂

13 11 2008
mudslide pike

Even though Prop 8 passed in CA the prop was not legal. To change the Constitution takes two thirds vote from the Senate and the House, two thirds of the States must pass this and the issue must not discriminate against the few. This is the same issue that came up in the sixties between racial couples. Be peaceful and remember that this will NOT pass.

13 11 2008
Marty (VA) Mudstock DC Inaugural Party.. reply to mudstockdc@hotmail.com

Bruce Willis on letterman..

as Barbie!!

13 11 2008
Denise MadLibFromMSgaAZca

The problem with using civil unions is that the preponderance of laws granting privilege do so with the word marriage. It would be a nightmare to undo/redo/change all the laws and almost certainly would not happen.

13 11 2008
Forty Watt

asiangrrl”Yes we DID”MN (20:01:46)

Thanks, I got it–very interesting.

13 11 2008
mudslide pike

@mnboucher

Thanks and I agree. Judge not that ye be judged.

13 11 2008
Bea

mudslide pike (19:56:35) : Exactly. Marriage as defined by the STATE is a civil contact and conveys certain LEGAL rights and privileges, thus ALL citizens should be allowed to enter into these contracts. if certain churches don’t wish to hold same-sex services, that is their right, but they have NO business trying to prevent people from entering into a civil contract.

asiangrrl”Yes we DID”MN (19:56:57) : I think you are being too kind. Name I don’t recognize + hate speech = troll in my book.

13 11 2008
braveny

When Alaskan’s go downtown on Saturday I will be with you in spirit in my own city. I have a whole group of “straight” folks demonstrating at City Hall in LA for Equal Rights for All People.

I also read last night that there has been quite a few folks leaving the LDS Church in the past few weeks protesting the Church’s stance on the matter. I was surprised about that, but proud of folks standing up to be counted on this issue.

13 11 2008
akmuckraker

I added another clip at the end of the post. Another one worth watching.

13 11 2008
Suchanut_AK

Thank you, AKM.

13 11 2008
Denise MadLibFromMSgaAZca

From my standpoint, it is good to have difference. If your opinion is different than mine, I am usually going to welcome it. Because I learn from you. (note, this does not count Bush)

So I am not offended that some people see the Prop 8 issue differently. Not being gay or having any openly gay relatives, it took interaction with real people who happen to be homosexual to clarify the issue for me.

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

AKM, thank you for your tireless devotion to all things Alaskan politics.

Oh my god. I just whizzed through Pat Robertson, and there’s Jesse Ventura actually making sense. Huh.

13 11 2008
Enjay in Eastern MT

carrying over from last thread —

Pundits are asking if SP is “the voice of the Republican Party”
As much as all of us hate listening to her voice – and some time ago quit trying to decipher her statements —

YES – Let HER be the Voice of the Republican Party — Oh yes !!!
Am doing to do the Drill Baby Drill chant – cuz everytime she talks – she is sending the Repub. Party further down the hole !!!

%%% Drill Baby Drill %%%

13 11 2008
Suchanut_AK

asiangrrl – who’d a thunk jesse ventura would take that position? Wow!

13 11 2008
Bea

Interesting 2nd clip. It seems to me that John & Cindy McCain have done more to ‘disrespect’ , ‘dishonor ‘ and ‘destroy’ marriage than any gay person ever has. And I never thought I’d say this, but “GO Jesse Ventura!”

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

Actually, this is one issue that I don’t really want to hear the other side because I’m bi. As I’ve stated before, I don’t really care about marriage as I don’t intend to marry anybody, but I do care about discrimination.

People who are pro-birth and anti-gay rights really need to focus on issues they can change (social programs for needy kids, the horrible divorce rate/ adultery rate of straight marriages) rather than focus on taking away other people’s rights.

No matter how you slice it, gay marriage DOES NOT affect straight marriage.

13 11 2008
schnauzer

Truly. KO said it all. What do you care? Your church is free to keep the sacrament of marriage for couples that meet the criteria for the churches blessing. But… The civil contract between two people? What do you care?

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

Suchanut and Bea, Jesse Ventura is a Libertarian, so I’m not surprised at his position. I just rather have someone else argue against Pat Robertson, someone who is not so whacky in his own right.

13 11 2008
Sue

The people who oppose same-sex marriage do so because they believe it is a sin.

13 11 2008
Suchanut_AK

I agree about Pat Robertson Asiangrrl.

Check this out – despite such a small population, we have a very active and quite lovely GLBT community here.

http://www.anchoragepride.com/index.htm

13 11 2008
Denise MadLibFromMSgaAZca

Different opinions coming together promotes interaction. People who have interaction with people who happen to be gay or lesbian often change opinions formed before such interaction. It changes us.

13 11 2008
Bea

Sue (20:16:56) :

The people who oppose same-sex marriage do so because they believe it is a sin.
____

And yet those same people turned out to vote for John Mccain, the ADULTERER in droves.

IMO, “sin” is used as a catch-all excuse when people want to feel good about their prejudices.

13 11 2008
SMG - MN

asiangirl – I think that the fact that marriage and religion are so inextricably linked in the minds of many is a huge factor in the resistance. Even many who oppose gay marriage are perfectly fine with civil unions. The problem is that so many get hung up on defining the term “marriage” rather than the underlying concept of “union.” Keith Olbermann’s passionate commentary the other night brought tears to my eyes. If only the world could see it that way.

13 11 2008
Cynthia, TX

Sue (20:16:56) :

The people who oppose same-sex marriage do so because they believe it is a sin.

But we all sin so what is their point? nothing.

13 11 2008
Denise MadLibFromMSgaAZca

Sue, you are right. Some who oppose gay and lesbian marriages do believe it is a sin. Some are afraid, some are motivated by tradition, etc…

I respect the religious beliefs of others, but don’t think we should all abide by them.

The laws of state and nation are things we do all abide by.

13 11 2008
Bea

The “Christians” get all worked up about the “sin” of being gay and yet those same people turned out to vote for John McCain, the ADULTERER in droves.

IMO, “sin” is used as a catch-all excuse when people want to feel good about their prejudices.

13 11 2008
mudslide pike

The contract you receive from the state gives you over 3000 laws and rights. The civil union gives you 27 laws and rights. Just not right….

13 11 2008
Cynthia, TX

SMG – MN (20:21:01) :

I don’t see how a religious person could go along with civil unions in regards to anyone. I thought the bible according to them does not allow for that. So, I again I don’t get the point. It’s denying people their rights plan and simple. What goes on inside the 4 walls of their homes has nothing to do with anyone other than them. I am just so over the religious right and their agenda.

13 11 2008
Enjay in Eastern MT

mudslide pike (19:56:35) :

I am straight with a wife and five children. I find this whole thing interesting as one of my children is gay. Now this is not a right or wrong issue. This is a Constitutional issue. Marriage takes place in the Church and all the Churches have a right to deny a marriage between two men or two women. The paper you get at the local clerks office is a CONTRACT between two adult individuals.

I find myself asking who has the right to tell my child they can’t be happy?

This is not a religious matter, but a legal one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Agree with you Mudslide

I believe the ppl that voted for the ban have the same “mind-set” of the pre-civil rights movement. Personally, I find it “uncomfortable” to see a same sex couple “necking” like a couple of teenagers, but I also know that it’s “my hang up” not theirs. It will take time.

Our government moves incredibly slow, except when bailing out wall street execs. Equal rights will come – maybe not this year or next – but it will happen, in my lifetime I’m sure. (And I am over 50)

13 11 2008
Dragon Lady

I agree the word marriage causes the trouble.

Some of us are old enough to remember the dreaded word: divorce.

People lied to strangers, distant relatives were not told. Much finger pointing with whispers – “S/he’s divorced.”

The tone would vary from “shame, shame” to “evil person going to hell.”

And these were not necessarily “religious” people.

Just sayin.

13 11 2008
gizmo

Bernice,

Whether or not you are in favor of same-sex relations isn’t the point. You’re free to live your life however you please– but you’re not free to impose your opinion on others. Other people’s intimate personal lives are not of your concern. There is nothing in the Constitution that empowers government to discriminate against anyone on the basis of sexual orientation.

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

Sue, what they believe religiously is irrelevant as our nation was founded on the separation of state and religion. Anti-miscegenation laws were on the books until 1967 (thanks, Keith, for that), and I can guarantee that interracial marriages would have been outlawed by the people in the late sixties if that was on the ballot as well, for religious reasons. Mixing of the blood and all that. Slavery was justified by using the Bible.

I don’t give a crap what people believe is a sin or not as long as it doesn’t find its way into the Constitution. Churches can refuse to marry gay people; religious people can turn their noses up on LGBT folk, but we should not be able to vote on a law that discriminates against a minority. That’s undemocratic.

13 11 2008
Sue

There are man’s laws and there are God’s laws. Sometimes they are the same, but sometimes they differ. For Christians, God’s law is above man’s law. Therefore, when a vote comes up about a man-made law that opposes God’s law, Christians will vote for God’s law.

13 11 2008
Enjay in Eastern MT

Sue (20:16:56) :

The people who oppose same-sex marriage do so because they believe it is a sin.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I do believe that was used as a defense against mixed marriages in the early 60’s “It’s an crime against God and humanity”

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

By the way, I do not respect someone else’s religious beliefs if that person does not accord me the same respect. It goes both ways.

13 11 2008
Joy

From MN here.
I am not Gay, but unlike SP, I DO have friends who are.
For the life of me, I do not understand why anyone would care about this issue. Two people who love one another want to be united. Big deal.

Marriage is a LEGAL contract. If a Church wants to bless the union or not, fine. But the government has nothing to do with that blessing. Prop 8 in CA and similar “laws” in other states will (and should) be taken down by each states Supreme Court.

13 11 2008
Sue

Enjay—If someone said that interracial marriages were against God’s law, they were lying. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that is is a sin to marry someone of a different race. It does, however, say that homosexuality is a sin.

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

Sue, then they should not be tax-exempt because they are becoming political. Or, they should be jailed for breaking man-made laws. Or, they should all live in a gated community so they don’t ever have to be threatened by outside ideas. This nation was purportedly founded by people escaping from tyrannical religious leaders.

13 11 2008
Bea

The “Christians” get all worked up about the “sin” of being gay and yet those same people turned out to vote for John McCain, the ADULTERER in droves. So much for “God’s Law.”

IMO, “sin” is used as a catch-all excuse when people want to feel good about their prejudices.

13 11 2008
Ted Powell

Bernice (19:48:28) :
… I am not in favor of same sex relations anyway.
So… don’t engage in them. If you feel that I’m missing something, please explain.

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

Sue, you are incorrect. The Bible states that there shall not be mixing of the blood (races). In addition, the Bible also states that adulterers should be stoned to death. You are not supposed to wear synthetic fibers, and you should marry your dead brother’s wife when he dies.

If people are going to take the Bible that literally, then they need to follow everything and not just pick and choose.

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

Ted Powell, thanks for the laugh. I needed it.

13 11 2008
Bea, who keeps going into spam, so trying with an alternate addy

The “Christians” get all worked up about the “sin” of being gay and yet those same people turned out to vote for John McCain, the ADULTERER in droves. So much for “God’s Law” — not to mention the little matter of separation of church and state.

IMO, “sin” is used as a catch-all excuse when people want to feel good about their prejudices.

13 11 2008
Sue

Whether or not one agrees with the Christian viewpoint, one must remember that in America, EVERYONE is entitled to freedom of speech–even people with whom we disagree.

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

Sue, but they are not entitled to take away other people’s civil rights.

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

That goes way past freedom of speech. And funny, but the pro-h8ers don’t seem to mind stifling MY freedoms. I don’t really care if they think I’m going to hell or that I’m a blight in the eyes of their God, but I DO care that they want to take away MY freedoms. They can call me names and even sneer at me when they see me if they like, but they need to keep their hands off MY freedoms! Democracy, my ass.

13 11 2008
Sue

EVERYONE–whether or not we agree with them–has the right to vote as they see fit. And EVERYONE–even those with whom we disagree–has the right to freedom of speech. If you think something is wrong, speak against it and vote against it. But please don’t be upset when Christians do the same.

13 11 2008
Dragon Lady

We did this one the other night.

If you want to use the Bible then “what God hath joined together LET NO MAN …”

It is surprising that divorce is “legal.” By law, it is legal although some churches do not recognize it.

Same difference as they say down South.

13 11 2008
braveny

I found the link to the LDS petion if anyone is interested:

(http://signingforsomething.org/blog/)

Note: This is a petition of Mormon people that are writing letters in favor of Equal Rights for All. Some are leaving the church for getting involved in this issue.

13 11 2008
Sue

I seem to have upset some people and they are getting angry. I was trying to explain why Christians vote as they do. Mudflats is a place for friendly interaction, not anger, so I will say good night.

13 11 2008
braveny

dern spell check is missing.. petion = petition

13 11 2008
wired differently

From the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

13 11 2008
Shikago aka Chief Shikago

From the last thread, where I found myself quite alone a moment ago…

CO Almost Native (18:51:04) :

Does anyone speak Palinese as a Second Language?
———-
OH, OH me me !

CO Almost Native; Having had such an aweful lot of words, the same words that have and has been exposed, through the media, and on behalf of this Governor, and as we’re concerned about this understanding, um, the understanding, the, definition of words said, before they’re said, and after, it is my wish, a wish of mine, to be in some small way, available out there, to those who may ask, at any time, like do, would they need, the help with the, words, and also the meaning, the the grammer of which I know, of them, if its yea or nay, they should feel fine about asking, me, then. Proudfully Palinese Interpretation Services, llc.

Chief Shikago at your service!

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

Sue you are conflating speech and action. Prop H8 should never have been on the ballot as it’s pure discrimination. I was raised Christian, and I have seen the damage is done.

Good night to the Mudflatters. I’ve had enough intolerance and bigotry for one night.

13 11 2008
SMG - MN

Cynthia, TX (20:24:31) :

I didn’t mean to imply that it wasn’t a denial of rights. Prop 8 was bankrolled by LDS, and it’s wrong. I just think that there are a lot of people getting so hung up on the terminology that they can’t see the forest for the trees.

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

And yes, I am angry, as I always am when rights are taken away from people in the name of religious freedom.

13 11 2008
Bea

I wish someone would explain to me how “Christians” get all worked up over the “sin” of being gay but had no problem voting for the ADULTEROUS John McCain.

13 11 2008
Northern Exposure

I don’t understand why opposition to same-sex marriage is even an issue. Why cause pain to people who are just trying to live their lives? Who is possibly being harmed by people getting married who want to get married? It’s been a non-issue in Canada for a long time.

However, I do see that taking this on as a “fight” and with street protests. will create a backlash that will distract from other significant issues. The conservative base loves this kind of fodder for firing up their network.

It may be best to focus on those issues which unite us (like world stability, planet health, economic health and sustainability, and health care reform) and on which we can build alliances at this time. The issue of equal rights will and should work its way through the courts as do all issues of equal rights. Patience is necessary.

Empathy and love to all who are hurting from the passage of Prop 8. And peace to those who find same-sex marriage difficult to understand.

13 11 2008
Forty Watt

@ Joy (20:30:44) :

From MN here.
I am not Gay, but unlike SP, I DO have friends who are.

____________________________________________

And Sarah Palin knows gay folks as well, I’m almost certain. She just doesn’t know that she knows that she know gays.

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

Northern Exposure, fighting for civil rights is never easy, and no one will ever give it to you. As one of the people affected by Prop H8, I think now is as good a time as any to fight this bull. I am heartened that the younger set voted overwhelmingly against Prop H8, though.

13 11 2008
Denise MadLibFromMSgaAZca

This is a raw issue because it is personal for so many of us. I am pleased to converse on such a personal level with so many of my Muddy friends. We don’t have to agree.

13 11 2008
asiangrrl"Yes we DID"MN

I really am going now. Good night all. Sorry for mucking up the mud tonight.

13 11 2008
Ted Powell

asiangrrl, the point was made rather succinctly by Pierre Elliot Trudeau during his time as Canada’s Minister of Justice, December 21, 1967. The state has no business in the bedrooms of the nation. (He later served as Prime Minister of Canada from April 20, 1968 to June 3, 1979, and from March 3, 1980 to June 30, 1984. There was a leader with class.)

13 11 2008
SMG - MN

asiangirl, please don’t go. You have so many friends here, and we are with you. I know that you’re angry, and you have every right to be. Are you still there?

13 11 2008
Dragon Lady

Shikago – SP is better than a Monty Python skit.

I couldn’t bear the two Greta interviews but realized later it was Greta suffering a lack of oxygen (and Greta eating Brian and/or Brenda.)

Have been lurking since about 8 trying to catch up and watch the conference.

Made my day to see her get such a cold reception in Miami. She seemed so nervous; lousy speech.

All these interviews have one result:
Sarah! I can see the end of your career from my house.

13 11 2008
Ted Powell

I sure wish this blog had a Preview button. If you google the relevant phrase in my previous comment, you’ll find its source.

13 11 2008
WCBG

Mudslide Pike
Prop 8 in California was a state constitutional amendment, not a federal constitutional amendment which must be approved by 2/3 of the states. All the Prop needed here in CA was a 50% approval of the voters.

Now, the constitutionality of the amendment should be the question, if it discriminates against the rights of California citizens. It’s another case of the government legislating our private lives. If anything, it should be protecting the rights of all our citizens. As Jesse Ventura said, the voters shouldn’t be voting on civil rights issues. And he may be correct in his statement saying the Civil Rights Act would not have passed if it had been voted upon by the populace.

The insane television advertising for Prop 8 was so false and incendiary it was disgraceful, particularly since it was all funded by the Morman church. I thought it was illegal for churches to contribute to political campaigns, although technically, this may not have been a “political campaign.” It’s too bad that the grassroots campaign against Prop 8 didn’t get on its feet until the election was over.

The outcome is all the more disappointing because this will bleed over into anti-gay marriage legislation in other states. Although it was on the federal level, the Equal Rights Amendment to the US Constitution, which would have prohibited discrimination based on sex, faced similar opposition back in the 1970’s. It passed both the House and Senate, but it failed to be ratified by 2/3 of the states, thus denying women equal rights for years, with some discrimination still in place, over 35 years later. Although the Amendment has been reintroduced repeatedly over the years, there has been little interest in it, probably because women gained ground in the fight for equality over the years. Perhaps we should move to raise the Amendment from the dead. It may cover the issue of marriage rights.

Just a few thoughts. Thanks for listening.

13 11 2008
Denise MadLibFromMSgaAZca

I agree that the word MARRIAGE is loaded with meaning that is unique depending on point of view. The word is something that is tripped over.

It is a shame that the word marriage is in so many many laws over decades and centuries.

13 11 2008
Dragon Lady

Oh Lord, this has gone South just like the other night over Trig/not about Trig.

13 11 2008
Enjay in Eastern MT

On another note –

Boss (Very Repub) & I had discussion today about “the economy”. Of course, it’s all Obama’s fault that the economy is in the tank with the stock market and unemployment is up and the country is heading into “Depression”

Asked how O was responsible since he wasn’t even elected when the market tanked. He said that O was “leading in the polls” and that’s what drove the market down – because of his policies regarding Big Business. The capital gains tax increase, more regulation, etc.

My comeback was … as I wonder how small my next bonus will be…… the Repubs are the “guys in the market” – they are the one’s yanking their money and causing it to tank — they are the one’s that are all ticked off about a capital gains tax increase that THEY don’t want to pay. The Dems are too busy living payday to payday & trying to pay for daycare & put gas in their vehicles.

I got ONE point for a “fairly valid” response.

13 11 2008
Northern Exposure

I thought it was quite nice that Barack Obama said right out in his acceptance speech that he would be a President for gay people and for straight people. However, he is nuanced in his definition of the word “marriage”, but favors civil unions that provide all rights equal to marriage.

Diplomacy may sometimes work better in the long run than war.

13 11 2008
Augie

I have never understood this whole “threat to the sanctity of marriage” crap. My dad, who piously presents himself as good and honorable Baptist man, was a serial adulterer in all FIVE of his marriages. Now that’s what I call the real threat to the sanctity of marriage.

13 11 2008
Denise MadLibFromMSgaAZca

Dragon Lady (20:50:40) :
I couldn’t bear the two Greta interviews but realized later it was Greta suffering a lack of oxygen (and Greta eating Brian and/or Brenda.)

All these interviews have one result:
Sarah! I can see the end of your career from my house.
++++++++++++++++++++

LOL. I needed that grin.

13 11 2008
Denise MadLibFromMSgaAZca

It’s safe to share strong feelings here.

13 11 2008
Joy

I’ll try this again.
Hi all, Joy here.
I’m from Minnesota. I’ve been lurking for weeks, reading avidly, getting tons of energy from all you wonderful MudPuppies.
Nice to meet you all!

I really, really dislike SP, but more importantly, I REALLY, REALLY Like P-E Obama. Of course SP needs to be rendered irrelevant. SP’s world of conservitism is so extreme, that I suspect with time (and more opportunities for “talkin'”) she will self-distruct. Heh.

13 11 2008
Enjay in Eastern MT

Hello Joy —
NJ from Montana here –
Keep saying if I could find a tall hill over here I could actually see into ND

13 11 2008
gizmo

If Christians were really serious about the sanctity of marriage, they would outlaw divorce. Gay folks getting hithced up is hardly a threat to the institution of marriage- divorce is the real problem.

13 11 2008
Eyes Wide Open in Pittsburgh, PA

I simply could not ever be gay. It is something I would never choose. I am only attracted to the opposite sex.

I believe that for the same reasons, gay people cannot chose to be straight. People are who they are. It is just that not all brains are wired the same way.

I have something special in common with Barak Obama, Bill Clinton, George H. W Bush, Gerald Ford, Ronald Regan, John McCain, H. Ross Peroit, John Kerry, Thomas Jefferson, Julius Caeser, Napoleon Bonaparte and Harry S. Truman. Do you know what it is?
.
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.(no, besides brilliance, it is something else)
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. (hint, it has to do with brain wiring)
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.all are/were left handed.

13 11 2008
Dragon Lady

Shikago if you are still there – from previous post – My sympathy and prayers to you as you remember the love and joy of your son Aaron.

13 11 2008
Enjay in Eastern MT

When my husband divorced ( Test Marriage ) – the state required CAUSE
(none of this irreconciliable differences which just means — OOOPS screwed up !

13 11 2008
strangelet

Shikago, Dragon Lady: I didn’t realize it until Chief’s Palingual translation, but Palin is a Monty Python skit; specifically: “Anne Elk”. “My theory, which is mine, and which is a theory of mine …..”

I must see if I can find that.

13 11 2008
Northern Exposure

Hi Joy. Agree about rendering SP irrelevant, so am bringing this comment forward from previous thread.

Maybe SP ought to be treated like any other troll? Don’t feed it.

Address the policy issues that reek–like Board of Game appointments that favor aerial killing wolves and destroying the pups in their dens, political patronage appointments, pork to special interests, lack of adequate support for Alaska Marine Highway, no effort at universal health coverage in Alaska, disrespect for women’s rights, opposition to clean water initiative, manipulation of wording of ballot initiatives, robo calls for Parnell, walking the fence with regard to Stevens, etc.–and ignore all the other stuff (except for that which is unethical or illegal).

13 11 2008
mudslide pike

@WBCG

I am in agreement that this was a State Constitutional move. I do believe that if you are voting on changing the State Constitution you need to be wary of the extent of the changes this will impact.

The average voter doesn’t even realize that they are changing a Constitutional Amendment as they are voting. The last time they placed the marriage amendment on the ballot in California I heard they ask a simple question,”Marriage is between a Man and a Woman.” A bit misleading if you ask me.

Most people would say why yes dear I do see Marriage as Man and a Woman. They didn’t think for a minute they were changing the Constitution. I think this is why we pay the Assembly and the Senate in our local Government.

At this point I feel that if they are afraid to make such a decision then they don’t belong in office.

If the Boob in Grabber is against Prop 8 Why did he wait so long to say anything?

13 11 2008
Denise MadLibFromMSgaAZca

Hi Joy! Nice to meet you. And I think Sarah is the history of the Repub party rather than the future. Because American demographics have changed.

13 11 2008
DeMo

I am too angry to disagree without being disagreeable. I will merely say ditto to those who so eloquently express that people of the same sex have every right to marry. They have every right to every right the Constitution bestows upon every citizen of the United States. Anything less is…unconstitutional.

People in the LGBT community are already living and loving together. Society has not fallen apart. Granting the community the rights of heterosexual couples will change nothing in this nation. People will not suddenly want to marry their pets. (A more ridiculous argument could not be made.)

What will change is that we will be a more inclusive nation. ENOUGH with marginalizing segments of society. ONE NATION with liberty and justice for all. That’s all it’s about, folks.

13 11 2008
Joy

@Enjay in Eastern MT

LOL

No tall hills here either. Heh.
Lots of ruckus here re: Franken/Coleman recount.
I gave money last night to the Franken campaign. Hope that helps to ensure this race is counted fairly!

13 11 2008
Denise MadLibFromMSgaAZca

Joy, I am impressed with the hand count that is fixing to start in MN.

13 11 2008
mudslide pike

Joy and Yesss GO FRANKEN!!!!!

13 11 2008
mhrt oregon

Welcome Joy
————
mudfalts is a great place to call home….

13 11 2008
Dragon Lady

Denise MadLib – Cafepress has a tee-shirt that has that phrase on it. Santa is coming; drop some hints at home. (I have a very good “Russia from my house” tee; the one with the onion domed buildings and a very perky Sarah.)

Bea – are you tryin’ to say McCain was an adulterer??🙂
(remember when you get spammed that Todd Palin’s favorite food is Spam with peanut butter)

13 11 2008
Northern Exposure

Well said, DeMo.

13 11 2008
Augie

Joy,
We welcome you as you come forward to admit you are powerless in your addiction to Mudflats.
There’s coffee and donuts in the back of the room.

13 11 2008
SMR

@Chief —

You here tonight?

13 11 2008
mudslide pike

I like the one,”You can have your under god as long as I can have Justice and Liberty for all”

13 11 2008
Aussie Blue Sky

strangelet (19:56:25) :

Aussie: re the previous thread — “he’s an old man, in his late fifties”

OUCH.
———————————————😀 I will re-phrase that: Perry is way older than the other guv hopefuls, who all have plenty of time left to make a run.😉

13 11 2008
Dragon Lady

strangelet – re Monty Python. Could we make a campaign highlights video interspersed with the same scene of Joe Biden slapping Sarah silly with a salmon?

13 11 2008
WCBG

mudslide pike,
Thanks for your response. I completely agree that the average voter had no realization of the ramifications of a yes vote on Prop 8. Huge difference between a constitutional amendment and a simple act of legislation. I think that legislation could have been overturned easier than the amendment. Perhaps the constitutionality of the amendment can be appealed to the state Supreme Court. Any way you look at it, it isn’t going away (the opposition to the proposition) and that is a good thing.

13 11 2008
Joy

@Northern Exposure

Hi ! If I am not mistaken, you are from MN too?
Yes, SP (or LaPalin, SWSNBN) record will deep six her on it’s own.
I Hate/Love hearing her speak. Hate when my brain gets scrambled trying to figure out what (if anything) she said, Hate when my gut curdles when I realize a large portion of our country actually LOVES her and dosen’t care what she says. And conversely, LOVE it when she babbles,and renders “herself” unelectable by the larger portion of our country. But still, I’d rather she shut up.

13 11 2008
Denise MadLibFromMSgaAZca

Dragon Lady:
remember when you get spammed that Todd Palin’s favorite food is Spam with peanut butter
+++++++++++++++

Ewwww.

13 11 2008
mudslide pike

: ( what’s wrong withbeing in your 50’s

13 11 2008
Shikago aka Chief Shikago

wired differently (20:42:06) :

Wired has it correct, Our Constitution is LAW and trumps, The Bible, The Koran, The Torah.

Dragon Lady (20:53:49) :
Yes just like Trig. I remember it well… Then two days later Palin drags her kids into it again, with 4 inch heels on a 7 year old carrying a disabled baby upstairs!!!

asiangrrl”Yes we DID”MN I know you must be gone. But this is your home too as it is mine. I, as your brother, will stand shoulder to shoulder with you and do battle anyday, for we know good will win over evil. Brainwashed fundies can spew their hate and condemnation of my family and friends elsewhere. Their days are over, they can follow Sarah to their new homeland in Bibleland and can resume God’s will according to the Bible stoning of women to death like the Taliban. then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die… God’s Will Be Done Oh wait then Palin would lose her daughters.
I’m with you sister!!!

13 11 2008
Dragon Lady

DeMo – yes they will want to marry their pets. That is the entire point.

First gay people, then Bush will divorce Laura and marry Barney. OMG, he’s a boy dog!!!

13 11 2008
Dragon Lady

Oh Suuueeeee – you hear Shikago? ditto, ditto.

13 11 2008
Joy

Thanks all you wonderful MudPuppies for the welcome.
Bedtime for me, but hope to enjoy your company again soon.
Go Franken!!!!!!!!

13 11 2008
mudslide pike

@WBCG

I do agree the far right is losing it’s grip. Dobson isn’t as powerful as he was. The gatherings are BIG and peaceful. The LDS is losing members over this and you might say they stepped in it BIG time. I hope this will all come to an end and we can move forward. I have been happily married for years I only hope that everyone has the same opportunity.

(if not the Divorce Lawyers will be much happier) just kidding

13 11 2008
Shikago aka Chief Shikago

“Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity”
Thomas Paine, American Revolutionary

13 11 2008
mudslide pike

@Shikago

I agree I think we are on the same page

13 11 2008
mudslide pike

Multi Million Dollar homes go up in Santa Barbara…. Winds at 70 miles an hour and everything is dry…..

13 11 2008
mhrt oregon

@Dragon Lady (21:25:02) :

Oh Suuueeeee –
———————-
oh my goodness…you just brought back memories from along time ago……are from the south….my grandma used to yell that out to call in the cows….BOY could she yell……

13 11 2008
Shikago aka Chief Shikago

“And this manner of speaking of the Almighty, as one would speak of a man, is consistent with nothing but the stupidity of the Bible”
Thomas Paine, American Revolutionary

13 11 2008
Dragon Lady

It is 1:33 and I need a note from everyone here if I am late for work tomorrow.

I will wear red tomorrow that way, my eyes will match.

Goodnight pups.

13 11 2008
Shikago aka Chief Shikago

“Today is a good day to die”
Crazy Horse

“Good night fellow muddies, I pass the pipe…”
Chief Shikago

13 11 2008
SMR

@Chief —

Wanted to say that my heart is with you today. Haven’t contributed much today, but have wanted to say that since reading your early post. I hope that you’re okay, not hurting too badly.

I don’t know if I touched on it before when we discussed this, but in case I didn’t will say it here. My eldest has an OCD that makes life very very difficult for her. She is different from other kids in a way that has made it virtually impossible for her to have a “normal” teenage life (or pre-teen, etc., as she’s had this since she was 4). She has always felt “other” and I have always had to be a supermom, really really engaged to the tenth power. She has often asked me why her, why does she have this. I’ve never asked that, it has always seemed clear to me, and I’ve explained it to her in these terms as well, that this struggle has made both of us very compassionate & caring people, as non-judgemental as it is possible to be, empathetic, utterly lacking in superficiality (well, she’s a teen, so SHE is still superficial at times). Bottom line is that I consider myself to be a pretty great mother (and most days I think she’d agree) and a pretty great spouse/partner, and that is because of the struggles & heartache that we’ve had in dealing with this ongoing issue, being selfish has never been an option for me since all of this came about. And she is a really great kid, we’ve had none of the problems with school, alcohol/drugs, boys, etc., she’s very kind & funny, and the issues that she’s faced have made her that way, as well as the fact that she’s had the benefit ofa very supportive & engaged parent, far far beyond my parents or even most parents.

I guess the point of all of this is that I see all of that and more in you here, the heartache & difficulties that you’ve experienced in life have made you strong in ways that most people never are or become. Maybe you would trade that to have your children back, and I would not blame you for a second, as I don’t know how parents survive the loss of a child. However, you are a blessing, here, to your spouse, undoubtedly to many family members and friends as well. I am thankful for your presence here, for your intelligence & support, and I offer you my support, my heart is with you today, you’ve been in my thoughts often since reading your post.

13 11 2008
jwa-Cheney Hussein Palin

I think the confusion about Christians voting their beliefs comes from a misconception about the philosophy of the Constitution. The American system of equality, freedom and separation of Church and State comes from the idea that public policy should be based on public good. An enlightened view of freedom holds that specific religious beliefs should not be codified in our laws. While I CAN vote for strictly religious views, I recognize that I should NOT do that. Freedom OF religion also implies freedom FROM religion. It’s the old chestnut about how my freedom ends at the tip of your nose.

Given the current climate of intollerance toward Islam, put the shoe on the other foot. How would fundamental Christians feel about having Sharia imposed on Americans? There’s a good reason for separation of Church and State and we do not want to live in a theocracy.

As a side note. Please be careful about making generalizations about ‘Christians’ being intolerant toward gay marriage. I assure you, we are not all fundamentalist nuts who desire to impose our beliefs on others. I consider myself a Christian, but I strongly support gay rights including marriage.

13 11 2008
Bear Woman

@ mudslide pike (19:56:35) :
I am with you. Only 2 kids, 1 is gay. Neither has found that special someone, but neither should be told they do not have the same rights as I do just because they want to have a civil union with someone of the same sex.

@ Northern Exposure (20:46:36)
Thank you. Many of us are passionate about different things. We do need to remember how to agree and to continue working for the greater good of the whole. As we find common ground on the issues that you mentioned, then that feeling of trust and unity will hopefully spread to the issue of civil unions for persons of the same sex.

@Asian Girl:
I understand your anger. It is not easy to accept being marginalized or told you’re wrong by society, especially when you see those committing these acts as hypocrits…. Please come back!

13 11 2008
ira2

My milkmaid brain can’t understand why this is even an issue. In all other respects that I can think of, the government …does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, age, national origin, veteran status, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, or any other basis of discrimination prohibited by law. So, how can there be discrimination when it comes to marriage?

I do however agree with those who see the word “marriage” as a problem. If the thing was called “civil union”, it would probably take the wind out of a lot of sails. “Marriage” just has this age-old image attached to it of man and woman and wedding and a passel of kids popping up behind the white picket fence over the years, it comes with Mother’s Day and Daddy coaching Little League and all the other picture-book images of what a family is supposed to be. Like it or not, that’s how it is. “Civil Union” is a different term without that image attached to it, and it’s more descriptive than “marriage” as far as the bare-bones meaning of it is concerned.

If I was a more or less rabid Christian, I might object to “same-sex marriage” because it’s simply not in the same class as what I would have to believe “marriage” means. But I can’t see opposing a “civil union” between two people, because the different term would allow me to see it as something different from the whole sanctity of marriage idea.

Like with so many other topics which raise high passion in people on opposite sides of the fence, here too a bit of consideration for the other side’s perception would go a long way. Shape your argument in a way that the other side can understand or at least live with, and you make headway… argue your point your way and only your way, and the other side will shut down in rebellion and refuse to even hear what you have to say.

As in, if you want to sell an idea to an unwilling customer, you shape your approach to be appealing rather than repulsive to that customer.

‘Course, I can’t sell water to a dying man in the desert, so I shouldn’t be talking about selling ideas either. Chances are I’m dead wrong about this, LOL! But hey – the law still stands as mentioned above. So how about that? Huh? Huh??

13 11 2008
SMR

@Asiangrrrl —

If you are lurking, decompressing or come back to read this, it’s for you.

I hope that you are not too angry or frustrated. This is a very emotional subject. I gave money to fight Prop 8, so know straight off that I am behind you all the way on this.

I hate to see mudbuddies leaving frustrated.

Remember that loudelf troll? What a git. I got into it one day with him (before we had the “don’t feed the trolls policy” I guess), he (she?) was being an ass, and I told him we all agree to disagree respectfully here, like-minded individuals, etc etc. He then said something along the lines of “what is this a support group or a blog?”

Hey, it’s both! 99,9% of the people here have been my source of support & comfort during these strange days. I don’t have a problem with calling you part of my support group! But I don’t want you to be angry of feel like you are not supported, so know this: I do support you, and so do lots of others here, so please come back & don’t be angry, okay?

XXXOOO

13 11 2008
Northern Exposure

From Alaska, Joy–calling it Cecily.

13 11 2008
Enjay in Eastern MT

For anyone that might be interested in some “late night” bedtime reading ~~

The is a very lengthy article @ Portfolio.com from early this week regarding “The End of Wall Street”

“”He and his team set out to find the smelliest pile of loans they could so that they could make side bets against them with Goldman Sachs or Deutsche Bank. What they were doing, oddly enough, was the analysis of subprime lending that should have been done before the loans were made: Which poor Americans were likely to jump which way with their finances? How much did home prices need to fall for these loans to blow up? (It turned out they didn’t have to fall; they merely needed to stay flat.)””

http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/national-news/portfolio/2008/11/11/The-End-of-Wall-Streets-Boom#page1

13 11 2008
mhrt oregon

SMR (21:43:08) :

@Asiangrrrl
—————–
we all a group of friends

—————–
SMR…..how did you open house go

13 11 2008
SMR

I have to say that if someone is objecting to marriage between GLBT persons based on their belief that it’s a “sin” then why aren’t they out promoting legislation for all of the other sins?

Why aren’t they lobbying for change in the constitution that makes coveting thy neighbor’s wife a crime? Adultery? Etc etc.

I am not religious and have a very limited knowledge of the bible, and virtually NO desire to have any knowledge of it, but I bet there are loads of other sins in the bible being perpetrated on a daily basis that DO affect the religious types directly. Why aren’t they going after those?

I have loads of GLBT friends that I love madly. As my daughter pointed out the other day, they ALL live more loving & giving lives than most of her acquaintances/relatives/etc who call themselves “christians.” I have to agree with her.

It’s a civil right of all Americans, pursuit of happiness and all that, and that’s all there is to it in my mind.

Marriage can be very very difficult, and if they want to give it their best shot, more power to them!!!!!!!!

13 11 2008
Aussie Blue Sky

Enjay in Eastern MT (20:54:50) :

On another note –

Boss (Very Repub) & I had discussion today about “the economy”. Of course, it’s all Obama’s fault that the economy is in the tank with the stock market and unemployment is up and the country is heading into “Depression”
———————————————————
The Republican media hate ranters have coined the term “the Obama recession” already.

13 11 2008
Enjay in Eastern MT

@ Asiangrrl — (((( big hug ))))

It isn’t fair – but it WILL happen –
WE CAN MAKE IT HAPPEN !!

13 11 2008
Northern Exposure

With you, Bear Woman.

13 11 2008
Enjay in Eastern MT

Am re-reading the Portfolio link I listed above –
not just for me —

I want 5 points for CONTENT & ACCURACY during next
“economy discussion” with boss 😉

13 11 2008
Bear Woman

I guess the Republican media does not remember that it was GWB in charge during this whole mess who built his war on a false economy! I guess they forget that the stage was set by Republicans in both the White House and Congress that LOVED deregulation. And most of all I guess the Republican media forgets that the DOW fell more before the election than after!

Guess we all know where SP gets her “forget the facts” and “let’s move on” attitudes from!

13 11 2008
Bear Woman

NEW THREAD

13 11 2008
mhrt oregon

NEW POST

13 11 2008
SMR

@mhrt —

Well, it was just a showing, allegedly their favorite they’ve seen out here in our little suburb, but don’t know much beyond that… We are not too far from Anchorage, but it is kind of a niche area, you either want to live here or you don’t, not many people consider the fact that it is less commuting time than living on the south end of the city, all they see is that it is OUT of the city. The schools here are light-years better than those in the city, and it is a sweet place to live, but if you’re just doing a house-hunting trip there’s not much chance that you are going to find out about the great schools & the community. We love our house, it’s practically brand new, just built/moved in in January. But we thought we’d be here for 3-5 years! Had to let the hubby go off to Calgary alone while I try to sell this house. Sigh. Decided to stay anyway to get our daughter through her senior year, not moving her twice in approx 6 months! The girls and I will leave in May after graduation, whether or not this place is sold — if we have to leave it empty, we will. Taking a nice long trip to Calgary over xmas vacation and again over spring break, that should tide me over until the move in May.

By the way, thanks for your nice post from the other thread, and I will look you up when we are next in your area! The in-laws are in Washington, and that is where daughter no.1 wants to go to college, so we will be just down the road (relatively, compared to Alaska) often, esp once we move to Calgary and start doing lots of traveling in our trusty VW van.

13 11 2008
DeMo

SMR (21:49:20) said:

I have to say that if someone is objecting to marriage between GLBT persons based on their belief that it’s a “sin” then why aren’t they out promoting legislation for all of the other sins?

Why aren’t they lobbying for change in the constitution that makes coveting thy neighbor’s wife a crime? Adultery? Etc etc.
______________________________________________________

All I can add is AMEN.

13 11 2008
Bear Woman

@ SMR (21:59:20) :
Don’t leave it empty, especially in these times and this economy. If you can’t sell in a reasonable amount of time or for a decent price, then rent it out. I left AK for a while when I met my husband and the BEST decision I made was to rent out my house until I decided if I was going to leave AK permanently or if I or we wanted to come back. We came back and could do so only because we had someplace to come to.

13 11 2008
Dustin

Ill be there @ noon!

13 11 2008
mhrt oregon

SMR (21:59:20) :

@mhrt –
———————
Selling a house is tough…….our house in california was like yours…except i lived there 27 years…….we lived on on half of a acre in the middle of town….we could walk any where…but my g daughter moved to salem so here we are…i really kinda like the rainy misty weather…….and salem is really just one hour away from the WA border……..i wish you luck with all that you are doing…..yvonne

13 11 2008
SMR

@Bear Woman —

I really really hope it will sell before May. We couldn’t rent it for anywhere NEAR what our monthly payments are, and so if we locked ourselves into leasing or renting to someone we’d be screwed if someone came along who wanted to buy it.

We do NOT want to come back to Alaska. Of course I say that now, and said that 5 years ago when we moved overseas from ALASKA and look where we are! We are 5 minutes away from our old house. That house was a new build in 1997, about 500-600 sq ft less than this house, and $300,000 less than this house. Our old house was sold for $140,000 more than we bought it for (by the fella who bought it from us) in 2005. He sold it for $60,000 more than he paid less than 2 years after he bought it from us.

So, I understand what you’re saying, really I do! But we cannot afford to keep this house, we really really need to sell it. We can’t have a place in Calgary and subsidize this place too. It has to go!

Hey, are you guys looking for a really nice new house?

Just kidding.

13 11 2008
Bear Woman

@ SMR

No, not in Anchorage area. I live in SE AK and that’s where I want to stay! Hubby would rather move back to FL, but then he was born, raised, lived there and did not travel until we met.

Guess I am a bad influence?!

Not really. We left FL partly because he was diagnosed with stage IV lung cancer in 2005. The outlook and statistics said he wouldn’t live more than a year or so. He couldn’t breath well and could walk no more than 100 feet before having to sit down. We sold his house at the peak of the market. I told him we either needed to rent in FL or move to AK. He chose to move here because he wanted to get me back to AK before he died. Here it is 3 plus years later and he’s still alive and doing well. Chemo is all he could get and he had a miracle response to one of the newest drugs at that time. No cure, no remission, but at least it shrunk and is stable and we’ve had far more time together than anyone would have expected.

My motto is: There’s always hope. That hope may change with time and circumstance and what we hope for may change, but there is always hope.

Works for my husband; it brought us President-elect Obama.

13 11 2008
Old Dyke

Message for Asiangrrl:

Delurking here, never posted before, but after reading some of the comments tonight I want to say something to you. I have been an out and proud lesbian since the 60’s. My spouse and I have been together for 23+ years. Because our country won’t recognize us as anything more than “single women sharing a household” we went to Canada and got married in 2003. We carry plastic “domestic partner” cards, issued by the State of Washington, just so we have some legal recourse to visit each other in the hospital. But we are still fighting the bigotry and hatred with our love for each other. We will be among the peaceful protester tomorrow, and we will continue the fight to be recognized as full, free citizens of this country. What the haters (religious and otherwise) don’t realize is they have already lost. They can’t legislate the love that’s in our heads and in our hearts, so they can’t win, no matter what they do. Believe in yourself and stay strong.

Please accept a long distance hug this elder!

13 11 2008
mudslide pike

Well good nite all

I have learned that all things work out in the end. The day is coming when two people who love one another will be able to live in peace. Until then we all have each other.

B C N U

13 11 2008
SMR

@bear Woman —

Congrats to you & the hubby on the continued good health. Every day is a blessing — good health or not, life is just that way, and every single day with the people we love is a day to be thankful for.

Living here is just not for us. We have a great marriage, wonderful girls, lots of blessings to be thankful for, but Alaska… Gah!

We are both oil-specific in terms of careers (I’ve been home w/the little one for years now, and quit when we moved overseas), so we go where the jobs are, and Alaska just keeps sucking us back. Southeast Alaska I think I could handle better than here. I was born & raised here, but mostly feel like a fish out of water for lots of reasons that I won’t bore you with.

The house will sell, I have to have faith in that. That and the fact that we just lowered the price $10,000…

In the interim there is plenty to be thankful for, and soon enough I will be boxing up my things and moving away. Or maybe not, who knows, life is strange.

All the best to you, my new mud friend, and your husband too. May you have many more years together.

And may we all have 8 years of peace & progress under Obama.

13 11 2008
SMR

@Old Dyke —

She will love your message. I snooped and read it even though it wasn’t for me, hope you don’t mind. It was a lovely message. There are lots of us here at Mudflats who are going to keep on fighting the good fight, hoping there will be a day when this is old news and we can rest on our laurels. Keep on living & loving, some day you’ll have the marriage license issued in the US if you want it, I have faith in that. Baby steps, or maybe two steps forward one back, or one forward, two back? For now.

14 11 2008
GJ in ID

The Spiritual Center I go to supports loving couples and use to marry any one of legal age, until our state officially outlawed same sex marriage a few years ago. We still support the marriages that were performed before the law changed. We also support Spiritual Unions of all kinds, from all cultures and help couples, partners and various other living arrangements to seek legal counsel on how to make these arrangements lawful in Idaho.

It sure was easier before the Mormons in S ID took their revenge on outlawed polygamy on the rest of the marriage seekers. Fear, hate cause judgemental people to seek power over others, rather than empowerment with others. It is changing, albeit slowly, have hope. I’ll be with you in Spirit AKM this Sat.
And check to see if we’re have a similar rally anywhere near me.

14 11 2008
SC Sista M Cluckhead

“Equal Rights For All” really is a simple message. It’s hard for me to understand why so many people can’t “get it.”

Especially concerning is the fact that, of course, so many “religious” folks are the ones who are the most opposed. I remember, as a child, being of the mistaken opinion that the religious community would most logically be those in favor of ensuring fair and equal treatment for all (in the spirit of “What Would Jesus Do” and all that malarkey) Of course, that was before I was able to read and reason for myself. Some of those churches are just now coming to terms, if at all, with the stances they took on slavery and concentration camps and civil rights for non-white people. They were wrong then and they’re wrong now. I expect that some of them will get around to admitting it sometime in the 22nd century.

Bernice: nobody is asking you to “promote” something you don’t agree with, but we would appreciate it if you didn’t actively resist fellow citizens who would just like to enjoy the same rights that you do.

14 11 2008
SC Sista M Cluckhead

Sue: with respect–
Though you probably did not mean to do so, by using the phrase about the way “Christians” vote, you are making some huge assumptions. You have made of “Christians” a huge bloc and it leaves out the millions of GLBT Christians that are out there, who are voting as humans-though they are ALSO Christians.

that’s kind of important to keep in mind. A huge proportion of the GLBT folks I know ARE Christians, too, though they are also constantly being told that they’re not good enough to fall into that category, either

If I’d known this conversation was going on last night, I’d have tried to stay awake and contribute in real time.
(J’m a lot older than Asiangrrl, you could almost say I’ve gotten used to this kind of discussion by now. And I hope you NEVER get used to it, Asiangrrl, because you deserve better. Never give up!)

14 11 2008
kittyonice

How disappointing for me to see that there are folks here on one of my favorite blogs, who don’t believe in equal protection for our gay and lesbian friends and family. For Bernice and Sue and others who agree with them, I am very sorry that there are so many people like you who would choose to impose your religious believes on others who obviously don’t share them you. In your insistence that we should follow your way of life with regard to who we can and can’t marry, perhaps you might take a serious, analytical look at what this notion resembles. If you ask me, it is somewhat fascist to insist that someone live by your personal religious values, even though the rest of us may not (an understatement, considering that MOST people are not very religious, if at all) share your same religious beliefs. I can’t say anymore because there are too many points to make and things to say about this issue to do justice to it here. I’m not going to be able to change anyone’s mind about this issue in this arena, but let me just say to Sue and Bernice, et al, that you should probably re-evaluate what you are doing here if you are not willing to throw yourself behind the No on 8 cause. It is clear what the position our devoted, esteemed blogger takes on this issue, if you find you are in disagreement with her/him (seriously! him or her?), the least you could do while you are here is to try to see our viewpoint. Barack Obama opposed Prop 8, in spite of claiming to PERSONALLY believe that marriage is between a man and a woman — he knows that it is fundamentally against the constitution to write in limitations for a certain group of people. This has never been done before in our history, to write into the constitution limitations for a certain segment of society — it goes against everything that the Constitution is supposed to be. No matter what your personal beliefs are, it is wrong to limit the rights of those who prefer to live differently than you simply because their way of living happens to go against your personal belief system FOR YOURSELF, and YOUR OWN LIFE. Remember that separation of church & State is a hallmark of our Constitution, and one of the basic tenets to our society; religious freedom. How do we have religious freedom if suddenly we have to follow YOUR particular religious belief with regard to whom we are or aren’t allowed to marry? Granting the same legal rights to committed gay and lesbian couples doesn’t effect anyone else’s religious convictions any more than what I choose to do with my time effects what you choose to do with your time.

14 11 2008
SC Sista M Cluckhead

I’m off to work in about 10 minutes, but wanted to relay a short story before I go:
A dear friend, who is gay and EVERYBODY knows it, has been wanting to have a marriage ceremony with his husband of 10+ years. Of course, it won’t be recognized in South Carolina, but he thought that perhaps the church that they are both very active in (time, money and other support) would consent to a nice private ceremony. Is anyone surprised that he was turned down?
Mind you, this same minister and congregation was OK with marrying off a convicted felon and also a homeless couple who were making a habit of being sexually active in a nearby cemetary (that effectively cured their “sin” of fornication! how cool) but they couldn’t CONDONE taking part in the marriage of two devoted Christian men, in love with each other, who are an integral part of their church.
How sad is that?
How perverted is that?

14 11 2008
Ripley in CT

I love this Mudflats community. makes me all tingly and warm inside. I wish the entire world community would have the same attitudes about how I was BORN as you all do.

Thank you.

14 11 2008
Marilyn

Thank AKM,

The clip of Keith is wonderful! There is a difference between a civil contract and a spiritual contract. I would like my son and his partner to have the option of a choosing both or either. Their partnership is strong and more supportive than that of other couples I know.

This is both a civil rights and a spiritual issue. The issue includes respecting the spiritual rights as well as the civil rights of men who love men and women who love women.

Keith’s suggestion that we remember the injunction: “Do unto others as you would have others do unto you.” is right on.

14 11 2008
Geneva FreeSpeech

I’m a lifelong, devout Christian with a graduate degree in theology and I believe that God’s justice demands that gay folks get the right to marry. I’m also straight and married, fwiw.
There are passages in the Bible that people use to condemn gay folks, and there are problems with using those passages. If all Scripture is to be taken literally, anyone who wants to use Leviticus to oppose gay marriage should never wear blended fibers or eat cheeseburgers, and had best be looking in the classified ads under Goats for Sale because it’s likely they’re WAY behind on the requirements for ritual sacrifice. Anyone who wants to use St. Paul’s brief utterance in Romans 1, over which much ink and toil has been spent by very good and prayerful scholars, to condemn gay people must face that Paul lived by a household code that took slavery for granted. There is no such thing as simply obeying the literal sense of the Bible, much of which is not written in the literal sense: every Christian (including those who say they are just obeying God’s word), picks, chooses, and interprets from that 66-book anthology. We would do well to examine our methods and our biases when we do that.
Jesus, respecting the laws and traditions of his community and going straight to the point of faith, says this is the only law that is binding:
1. Love God and
2. Love our neighbors as ourselves.
Here’s part of what that utterance of Jesus means to me in my culture and time, as I do my best to follow Jesus: If I love my neighbors, and some of my neighbors are unrelated consenting adults who happen to be gay and who want the civil rights that come with civil marriage, it is my Christian duty to work for their right to marry under the laws of my state and nation. I will also, as a separate issue, work for their right to marry in church on the same grounds, though I also believe, on non-scriptural grounds, that civil and religious marriage can’t be separated clearly enough.
There is an article that is far better than this comment at http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-walter-wink

14 11 2008
Go See Alice a/k/a Copper Lipstick Palin

Bernice and Sue:

I’ve taken a vote- both your ” marriages” were void from their inception.
I’ve annulled your marriages in other words, as they were an affront to me and to other thinking beings. Your husbands are strangers to you; if they croak, you get no social security benefits and you pay about 50% tax on anything they leave you.
Your kids – well, they’re illegitimate.
Next we tax your churches…

14 11 2008
Snowplow Shovel Palin

I agree with Jesse- keep Government out of relationships- let the Church/synagogue Moses handle the demagoguery.

I pay taxes so some Mormon dipshit says who Ellen Degeneres can/can’t be as miserable with as the rest of us hetero folk ( lols).

14 11 2008
Snowplow Shovel Palin

Mosques.i meant to write, but Moses sounds funny…

14 11 2008
InJuneau

@Sue (20:41:41) :

I’m sure no one is lurking on this thread anymore, but I have to agree with everyone else who said that your blanket assumption that all “Christians” oppose same-sex marriage is WAY off base. I AM a Christian, attend church every week, with my (opposite sex) spouse help with middle school youth group, and attend a “welcoming church” where we live by the standards that Geneva FreeSpeech wrote of: Love God, and Love your neighbors as ourselves. I think that the prevalance of adultery and divorce are a much larger and greater threat to marriage than the ability of my gay and lesbian friends to get married ever would be, though ours in not threatened by the existance of those either.

14 11 2008
Old Dyke

SMR and Mudflat Community

I’ve been reading this blog on a daily basis since Palin popped up on the national scene, and have been extremely impressed by the intelligence and the sense of community found here. So I was rather stunned by the sudden change in attitude that the Prop 8 protest story caused among some of the comment writers . But true to form, most of the good folks of the Mudflats rallied around and defended the right of all of us to love who we love. I don’t know how many of you will see this post, but I just wanting to thank all of you for your kind words and support. Please know that they are valued beyond measure.

14 11 2008
Go See Alice a/k/a Copper Lipstick Palin

Old Dyke, belated best wishes to you and your wife and may you two continue to live

Happily Ever After

14 11 2008
Bent Alaska

Thanks for posting our protest, Mudflats. Our voices will be heard, even on the Last Frontier! Updates and photos will be posted on Alaska’s LGBT blog: http://www.BentAlaska.com

14 11 2008
Denise MadLibFromMSgaAZca

Thanks BentAlaska for the link.

14 11 2008
Bernice

Since making my first comment on this topic I chose to simply read the remaining responses before I respond again, as I often do. I have come to the conclusion that most here are insulted by my comment, for that I am sorry as I did not wish to offend, but to merely state my opinion that I am entitled to.

Aa an Independent Voter very much in support of PE Obama from day one because I realize there are so many issues facing our nation that I trust him to address in a positive manner for the betterment of the majority of our citientry. I am not naive to think that ALL will be pleased with him, as I am not lead to believe that ALL will be pleased with my vote for him or my opinion on this topic, that’s life! We each are given to our own thoughts and beliefs.

I would like to also say to those that are of the mindset that churches as a whole are NOT ALLOWED to involve themselves in politics, you are only partly right. Churches receiving tax exemptions are not allowed to endorse a candidate or party, but not ALL churches receive tax exemptions, many chose not to so that they can play a role in our political process. However individual Christians ARE allowed to vote and we often vote based on our Christian beliefs. I do agree with many that have stated that the Republican Party is a bad representative of Christians and Godly principles. I wish they would stop falsely aligning themselves with the church, to be honest with you I do not feel that God is truly reflected in ANY of the parties so I base my vote on the issues and who I feel will best address them for those most in need, however IF ever a single vote was EVER put before me that I understand to be based on Godly principles as I know them to be I would HAVE to vote according to my faith.

We each are called to be true to what we understand to be truth! It’s an individual thing that can however affect the many!

15 11 2008
Go See Alice a/k/a Copper Lipstick Palin

Bernice wrote: “We each are called to be true to what we understand to be truth! It’s an individual thing that can however affect the many! ”

And your individual anti-gay “thing” affects many others in such a negatie manner. In the US , we base our laws on the constitution, not the bible. Believe what ever you wish to believe- that’s your right; but don’t feel bad if you are confused with Mrs Bull Connor.




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